@Desertlap - that it takes the analysis of the old AnandTech to figure this stuff out is what gives me that headache. :vb-surrender:
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That’s part of what I mean. Anand himself has exceptional skill at explaining highly technical subjects to less technically versed audiences.
One of his talks was how I got a rudimentary understanding of the concepts around qubits.
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Exactly. On that technical point, they were totally out to lunch. The magic word they missed is binning. For example, binning is why a Core i7 Surface Pro can actually last longer than a Core i5 Surface Pro on battery saver mode: higher quality silicon leads to lower voltage curves relative to clock speed ramps. Putting aside the sorry state of NotebookCheck’s reviews these days (e.g. they also somehow still manage to measure OLED display contrast ratios wrong despite complaint after complaint), looking at the broader issue despite their lack of knowledge in the details like this, 12th Gen runs hotter than previous generations. So depending on vendor implementation, given how tricky it is to cope with its thermals, a Core i5 device at one vendor can run significantly faster than a Core i7 device at another. However, I would suspect that if the manufacturer of the Core i5 model device that currently tops NotebookCheck’s charts were to have a i7 processor swapped in place in that very same decice by that manufacturer, this would be the result. That manufacturer’s superior thermal solution would allow it perform even better still with the Core i7 because the Core i7’s higher binning gives it greater efficiency and cooler operation (meaning a Core i7 at the same clock speed as a Core i5 should draw less watts, and a higher clock speed for the Core i7 should draw similar amount of watts as a lower clocked Core i5 because of the Core i7’s higher binning). Manufacturers have varied in the quality of the thermal solution and dynamic power control in firmware of the brand, model or generation of processor since the dawn of computing. But 12th Gen’s higher power and cooling demands have made this more abundantly apparent as of late.
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A post was split to a new topic: Reddit User Slices And Dices To Cut His Very Own Bargain-Priced 1TB 2230-sized NVMe SSD
Just an update/ data point for what is likely a small subset of users, but the latest firmware update fixed several small issues with USBC/TB video support specifically with multiple 4K displays.
When we re-tested this morning it now scores 96% spec conformity which puts it in the very top tier now.
TLDR: If you are having issues with your external display and your Pro 8 it’s pretty likely your display, or even more likely your cables.
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A heads-up for those who are okay with a minimal system. There’s a good holiday sale at Best Buy for the i5/8GB/128GB SP8. $900 includes the black keyboard cover.
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Don’t give up on the Surface Pro 8.
I’m using an SP8 Graphite i5/16gb/1tb (Kioxia replacement)/type cover with slim pen 2 that I snared on eBay (from a previous seller) for $1300. I love the graphite color, and notice no difference from the i7 I tested earlier this year. It came with the OEM 256gb ssd and a Kioxia (Toshiba) ssd he bought for upgrade. You all know I generally HATE eBay but there are some good sellers out there - and he even made sure the Kioxia was formatted and sent the USB-C restore thumb drive. I followed @Cbutters excellent YouTube video (on the 7+) and it upgraded without a hitch.
From my month with an iPad Pro 11 on iPadOS 16, I’d have to say that it screams for the 12.9" unless you really make up your mind to use the 11 in traditional full screen/slide over mode and reserve Stage Manager for the external display. The reason I raise this is that the 13" SP8, except for the miniLED screen, is a good competitor to the iPP12.9. Granted pure tablet use is superior on the Apple, but MS has really nailed the productivity and general table usability, with a better integrated (kickstand with keyboard/pen storage) solution with a real desktop operating system.
I am still the guy who wants to ultimately end up with an iPad only solution, but for me the SP8 is a better solution for the here and now needs of a productivity/business user.
For SP9 MS really needs to: (1) double down on expanding the Android tablet application integration; (2) ad internal 5g support from INITIAL RELEASE DATE - not months later; and (3) bring back the mSDXC slot for internal storage/backup.
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This very comparison was dawning on me today when I was at a Coffee Shop. Got sick of being couped up home working remote, so I went to one of my coffee shops today.
Sat down at the large communal table this coffee shop has with my Surface Laptop Studio which is my work laptop. Usually I would have 1-2 USB-C monitors side by side with it, but work was light today so a second or third monitor wasn’t necessary.
So I had my Laptop Studio up for work, and I took out my Pro 8 to finish up some drawing in those 20-30 minutes gaps when no emails are coming in. Keyboard on reverse and sketching away with the Slim Pen 2, till the eventual Ping of the inbox on the Laptop Studio. Had my Duo 2 on the table as well with a pair of the Surface earbuds in my ears. I must literally look like a Surface Brand ambassador the way I was rocking the Surface logos on the Tables Surface.
But the Table was long and communal, it wasn’t long before someone sat down at it as well. An artist as well, but I think he was designing T-shirts from what I could observe. He had a Macbook Pro 14, with an iPad Pro 12.9 with Apple Pencil 2, and he placed his iPhone on the Table with the Apple earbuds. He opened up his Macbook to what looks like emails, and starting sketching some designs on his iPad.
It was almost comical how similar our setups were at that table, with the Big laptop for work and the tablet device for drawing. We were in almost every way brand queens representing House Microsoft and House Apple respectably. it was almost game of thrones-ish in a weird tech way.
But despite the Pro 8 being a full computer in itself, I don’t think I ever truly felt it was the perfect analog to the iPad Pro 12.9 until today.
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We’ve been doing a bunch of display testing of late, so a short PSA on the Surface Pro 8 and 240 hz displays. The good news is that they work, even the 4k ones including Sony’s superb new Mzone 4k display at 144 hz.
The bad news? is that regardless of the battery mode you may have set, it switches to performance mode regardless and also drains the Pros battery fairly quickly, 100% to 15% in just over two hours.
It’s unclear at this point if that’s by design or firmware bug, though the SLS does it too. The Pro X doesn’t appear to support 240 hz at all regardless of resolution.
PS: That Sony is hands down the best small display for watching HDR video as well with best implementation of active dimming we’ve seen in a computer desktop display. it’s not the most accurate out of the box tending towards oversaturation but after calibration is top tier.
OTOH maybe they are taking a cue from Samsung OLED phones which do the same thing at the default settings. It does make pictures and video "
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I believe it is due to the pesky performance limitations of the integrated graphics in lower power modes. In Windows 11’s “recommended” power mode, Xe graphics is capped at 750 MHz in my personal experience and will fluctuate between 650-750MHz under a full load. This is instead of the constant 1350 MHz under a full load in “best performance” power mode. I have also noticed Xe struggle at UHD+ and 60 Hz+, so it would only make sense for it to increase power draw to prevent an otherwise laggy experience. The downside is despite the huge gains Intel has made in the field of integrated graphics, Xe just plain isn’t as power efficient as Vega and most definitely lags behind RDNA2 on that front, so in solving the UI lagginess problem, the battery life takes a sudden nosedive. Hence my growingly unanswered plea to Microsoft and every other Windows tablet maker to make an AMD-powered Surface Pro-like tablet. Will it happen? I strongly think no at this point, but my Steam Deck comes awfully close and has eliminated any last tiny lingering desire I had been holding to of wanting a Surface Go as a content consumption device.
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That’s possible or at least part of it, though supporting high refresh rates doesn’t automatically incur a significant power penalty. It does make sense that MS clips the clock speed of the GPU to conserve power though. (it’s possible vis the clock on the connector itself to support faster than GPU clock rates via various techniques, though more typically it’s used in the opposite direction where the GPU is running far faster than the display refresh rate.
I’ll post back when MS responds to us with the “official” answer.
BTW: One thing is also abundantly clear is that it’s important to have truly certified high speed/spec HDMI or DisplayPort cables. We were at first getting inconsistent results on various devices such as being limited to 120 hz or Windows showing the display as not supporting HDR.
Turns out it was the cables, even a couple of name brand. albeit several years old ones such as Belkin and Amazon Basics (which was our default choice).
And specific to the Pro 8 and a couple of other devices that can output video via the USBC/Thunderbolt connector. Almost all of the multi connector adapters including Belkin and J create models locked the refresh rate down to 60 hz and/or SDR video.
In fact only Apples Multi adapter with HDMI and USB worked properly, and there only with Macs or iPads.
TLDR for best results, use a USBC to HDMI or Display port dedicated cable for best results.
And if something isn’t working that in theory should, start with you cable first for troubleshooting
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Well, they are trying to run 240Hz. It’s not exactly kind of GPUs.
I’m not really sure what you’d need it for on such a computer given the performance, but the last thing to expect would be good battery life.
I’ve not seen any evidence that using high refresh rates doesn’t mean a significant increase in power consumption. Even the smartphones with it get a few more hours if you lower the refresh rate (which, imho, is a better choice).
Except that’s not quite the way it works. Yes the actual display itself consumes significantly more power when running at 240 hz versus 60 hz. but with an external display that power drain isn’t relevant as it’s provided by the power supply of the display.
The clock chips on the interface to oversimplify a bit have a much smaller delta. The question which we don’t have a clear answer to yet is how MS/intel handles the updating of each pixel. If it’s refreshing the entire pixel array at the faster rate, then yes it will consume significantly more power, but modern graphic cards typically only update what’s actually changed at the display refresh rate.
In other words doubling the refresh rate at the connector level only consumes about 15% more power.
That’s why for example people have discovered that batteries drain faster when displaying moving images, than static, or mostly static ones.
There may be other valid reasons that MS chose to keep the system in the high performance state such as possibly improved UI responsiveness, but that’s just speculation on my part until/if MS responds.
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Ok so we got a more than a bit vague initial response from MS on my question about why the Pro 8 and SLS shift in to high gear when a 240 HZ display is connected.
"to ensure consistent user responsiveness "
OTOH, They also said we should not have experienced the dramatic drop in battery life and are investigating
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Haven’t posted or even read these forums in a long time. Unfortunately this site get blocked at my work. I must say I really miss the old forum.
Anyways, a question. I am thinking of getting a pro 8 with the smaller SSD to save some cash but with the intent on installing a larger SSD. But I’ve been hearing so many horror stories of failures I’m a little skeptical. Are there any 1TB drives that are (almost) guaranteed to work? Are there any 2TB drives on the horizon that look promising?
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I just bought Dale’s Pro 8 for my daughter. It has a Kioxia drive. He would know better than I, but that one worked okay for him.
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Yes, the Kioxia (Toshiba) works good. The prior owner had everything ready for me though, including a boot thumb drive. When you install it, I think it is worth getting a thin sheet of the insulation or a thin layer of thermal paste to put it between the cover and the disk when installed just to be sure you don’t get heat build up. It’s also a good idea to follow Rubino’s guide over at WIndow Central.
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This video was helpful to me doing the swap on my SP7+. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZevH4soLmo
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Our old friend cbutters also made a Youtube video harvesting a 2230 drive from a USB-c drive…
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Thanks for the input guys! Yes, I’ve seen those videos, looks like a fairly simple operation.